Times are Screwed!

[Chopper]

You know times are all jacked up when the Nervous Class, wait I mean Novice Class is the Premiere stand-up class on the GLWT. That is jacked for sure. I need to get reclassed so I can race with all the fast people and have more than one other person on line. Maybe then if I ever go back to Havasu I can win 3-4 World Titles and ride out into the sunset on top of the Nervous world!

[spence-r]

Novice is a premier class? What tour?

[Chopper]

It's the Premiere class on the GLWT. It's the class that everyone wants to be in!

[joe563]

Shouldnt have moved up so fast huh???thats what i am hearing... hopfully some guys move up for you this year... you have you king jim and eb??

[Chopper]

King, Jim, and EB... You mean King? Jim hasn't raced anything but vintage or Sport in a couple years and EB only races Vintage some times, and has never raced outside of novice. Me, I don't even know what races I'll be coming to. Maybe if I skip then entire season I can move back to the Nervous class and sandbag. As far as moving up fast, what is one to do. I've been in expert since '04. I guess I could have became a career nervous racer, but does that help anything at all? I think I'm going to box most of my trophies up and give them back to scott cause I just don't have room for them. Then can rebadge them so his expenses are lower...

[spence-r]

If this is directed at me its only my second year in novice, ive seen people go alot more than that! yea I could compete at expert around here but not on a world level, which is what I care about. If I do good again this year Ill be headin into the expert class with all the confidence in the world and more than enough experience. If I move up too fast and stop winning I could get burnt out of it I guess.

[spence-r]

double post

[Chopper]

Spencer, get over yourself. This is not directed at you. If I wanted to target you I would have called you out directly.

It's a real issue, one that doesn't help the sport at all. The bottom line is that if a racer in the ski class wants to line up with more than 2-3 people he/she must race in the novice class since that is where all the ski (stand-up) racers are. Really think about that for a minute... Why would an expert racer want to sign up for an expert class when he/she has to pay more money due to the title of the class, the payback is the same (Zero) and the number of participants is fewer. Does that really make much sense? Well, I know that I have a skewed way of thinking, but really. Why would someone pay more money to race in a class that just has the "perception" of being more elite when the outcome is the same and the fun factor is less due to the minimal number of participants. Based on sheer numbers the Nervous class is actually a more difficult class cause there are more racers in it. It's gotten to the point (Joe you might agree with me on this) that classes should be dictated based on machine performance level only. Stock, Limited, Open. No more Novice, Amateur, Expert, Pro-Am, Pro... The exception being Beginer based on the pure inexperence level.

So Spencer does that Answer your question on if this was directed at you? This topic was started to spur some legitimate debate. Yeah, I used a round about way to do so with my opening statement, that's how I roll.

[fox river pwc]

I don't only race vintage cuz I'm a cheap Pollock. Don't get me wrong, I AM a cheap Pollock, but I'm not a stupid one, and I pay attention to everything going on around me. My primary motivation for riding skis is to have fun, well technically, I'm trying to have reasonably safe fun (which is why you won't see me on a runabout - THOSE guys are nutz ;)) - and it's also why I rec ride FAR more than I race or run buoys (as my ultra-competitive years are way behind me now). I don't mind spending money when I'm relatively sure that my money will provide me with reasonably safe fun in return, and I have 7 nicely-modded skis to prove that point, but anyhow...

I've only been to nationals once, but I paid close attention. IMHO, a whole bunch of the guys in novice ski sure looked like experts to me. Hell, at least the top 5 looked to me like they'd be top 10 experts at that same event, and the top 3 novices I watched looked at least as fast as king and chopper (no offense). I remember thinking, "WTF is the point of novice class if half the guys in it actually belong slicing and dicing with the experts?" I also remember thinking, "Looks like I'll just keep racing my SJ, cuz if I buy a SXR or HS, I don't even know if I'll find a class to race it in." The LAST thing I'd wanna do in this sport is sell a couple of my skis to come up with the $$$ for a current/competitive ski just to get my a s s handed to me by some bagger in novice class. Wanna guess how many TRUE novices probably feel the same way and never bother showing up to race because of this simple belief/fact? Think about that for a minute and how it truly affects attendance. IMHO, even one novice bagger in a region can easily cause SEVERAL true novices to stay home, or race just once and never return...

Again, IMHO, part of the problem as I see it is that we tend to pat novices on the back the same way we pat experts, instead of kicking novices in the a s s and "persuading" them to move up, for the overall good of the sport. As far as I'm concerned, since nationals is mostly made up of racers who only run regional events and then make the special trip to one major national event per year (and maybe world finals as well), it SHOULD be (and IS) made up of the most serious racers right? Therefore, classes like novice ski should be TINY compared to expert ski. If novice has 15 entrires, then expert should have 60 or 80 with lots of heats and an LCQ and one main - period. Novices should be RACING (pun intended) to get the hell out of novice class and move up to expert asap. They aren't at all. Very sad.

Spencer, you aren't the problem. You are simply the symptom of the problem created by a lot of misguided opinions held by too many leaders in this sport. And, to be 100% correct, this sport has been lacking strong leadership for a long time - and no, I'm not bagging on Scott here at all. I won't speak directly for Scott, but I assume he struggles with telling people to move up versus driving them away from the sport. If Scott were to force strong novices to move up while other promoters weren't doing the same thing, he'd surely lose some racers. To correct this issue, ALL promoters need to be on the same page, and right now the page seems to be set on "let everyone stay in novice who wants to stay in novice for as long as they want".


Tell you guys what, I'm gonna put my ego and my wallet where my mouth is, right here right now. I've been thinking of working a trade of my spec blaster for an SXR, but I haven't committed to anything yet, and doubt I'd be able to pull the trigger on a deal for this season. However, in the meantime, I've got an idea for my Vintage SJ (if Scott would allow it). Last season, I gps'd my SJ at 49.7mph (no BS), and I know it just needed some tuning to get a bit more out of it - I just didn't care enough to bother last year. I was actually working on it yesterday, and I haven't gps'd it yet, but I'm pretty confident that I can get 51 or 52mph out of it now. If I'm not mistaken, that's about the same as a stock-legal SXR, right? Maybe even a tad slower? I know when I hop on other people's stock-legal SXRs, I can run better laps and I don't get nearly as tired, so my SJ is certainly no advantage (for me) versus a stock-legal SXR. Anyhow, if Scott will let me, I'll race my SJ in the Expert Ski Stock class this season - AND, if anyone in that class (after a couple motos) feels like I somehow have some kind of unfair advantage (yeah right ;)), I'll gladly trade skis with them or start with a dead engine. (Also, if someone then wants to rent my SJ for Vintage, it will be available, cuz I'm gonna be too damn exhausted to run it there as well, seriously...) Oh, and if this happens with me in expert ski stock, and anyone wants to kick my a s s cuz I'm in their way (yet the blue flag ain't flyin), they need to know in advance to F-off, cuz I'm a friggin out-of-shape-almost-always-injured-with-his-chiropractor-on-speed-dial 41 year-old soon to be grandfather on a friggin SN SJ - every expert needs to figure out a safe and EXPERT way around my a s s and appreciate the fact that I'm out there making jetwash and doing my part to fill that expert line as best I can. Also, if I'm allowed to run my Vintage SJ in expert ski stock, then I think EB should be allowed to run his Vintage SJ in the class as well - not that I'm calling him out at all, I just think he should be allowed the same opportunity, as our machines are very close in performance, and it would be cool to have him in there too, IMHO.


Yes Joe, I know this is a long post. Crack open a(nother) beer and keep reading :).

And Spencer, if I'm in expert ski stock, you can be too, right? After all, I'm slooooooooooooooooooooooow, you said so yourself, and I saw your recent vids - you sure look like an expert to me now :).



Oh, and I know how to fix the "novice sandbagging" issue real fast - stop awarding novice championships - period, simple, end of story. Let people race novice and win plaques for individual races, but just don't count points at all and award novice championships. You want a championship? Become an expert and beat the best, simple.

I like the idea of machine performance level classes only too. I wish that would happen sooner than later, but that's a whole nother topic for discussion of the future, as implementing it this year would be tough...

[STXRGirl]

That was the "War and Peace" post of 2010 to date! Not enough ice cream or beer to get through that! And the point was ..............? ;)

[Maulin Marto]

Like I've said before...at 43 and soon to be 44 years old I'm just happy to be in the tray. I race expert to challenge myself, and racing with guys that are further along in riding skills is actually safer in my opinion. After being out of racing for 8 years I'm not anywhere near the level of expert I left at (yet) but, I know where to put my boat if I'm lucky enough to get out front, and know when to get the hell out of the way when I'm being being passed by better and faster riders. Safe and fun....#1 Voss family goal. I'm kickin ass this year bitches....watch out!

[Chopper]

Whoa, Fox River and I agree on something. Pretty much all that Fox Stated in the first half of his post is true, along with the last part. As far as the expert ski stock part, I don't think that will much matter cause unless there are some people that we don't know about around here (which there could be) I doubt that there will be anyone lining up in that class. You won't see me in Expert Ski Stock (sold the stock ski), and I doubt you'll see Steve King in Expert Ski Stock since he owns a limited also. Dean P might register for it, but I would guess only if there is a number of others also registering for that class. I personally don't see the need for Expert Ski Stock when there is a Pro-Am Ski Stock that is actually open to a larger number of racers. See the real problem is not offering a bazillion classes, that might help the promoter in the short run with more entries but in the long run people will only race by themselves or with one or two others for so long.

The novice class has been full of sandbagging ever since I can remember. The reason I left novice is to prove a point that you don't have to stay in novice forever to get better. I believe that part of the reason I was able to improve is due to moving up. See, I didn't and still don't hang my hat on how I place, I hang my hat on how I perform. That might mean a 1st or a 10th... The bottom line is constant improvement though. If I feel there has been an improvement then great. If someone were to constantly lap the entire field how is that improvement when you have no one to push you. Competition breeds competition and if there is no competition, no one to push you to get better at some point you will become stale, you will falter and bam all of a sudden you are not improving at all. It's true with all competitions not just watercross. Of course you can pair this with the statements that Fox made, which is if there is constantly the same winner in a class, and that winner is head and shoulders above the rest of the field then others that truly belong in that class might not show up anymore.

[Maulin Marto]

Can anyone bring oxygen this year? Hey, lets have an oxygen bar for all the +40 guys...and girls.

[Chopper]

Try a Powerlung (http://www.powerlung.com/)

[Chopper]

Here is something to think about. Who would be against or for racing in Open Classes... Open in the sense of skill level not PWC Performance Level. It's done this way in europe. Yeah there will be obvious differences in rider ablities. But it would do a couple things: A) it would help the Spencers of the world prepair for their one race that counts for the season (World Finals) B) It would provide fuller lines. Fuller lines would equal better racing for the racers and better viewing for the spectators. This would probably work best in a regional racing envroment where the number of racers is rather low compared to the national or world formats.

Note to Spennypoo, you see when I call you out or at least refer to you I do it outright.

[fox river pwc]

That's right, I spaced the fact that the stocker had been sold. Oh well, it's the thought that counts ;).

On the subject of Expert Stock, can anybody even name 3 racers they know of that would run it? I know Adam I was planning to race this year, and his SXR is stock, so he could - but Rob B, who rides with him all the time and was gonnna race as well, rides a limited SXR. I think Rob is 40 now, so he'd probably run masters and/or vets.

I'm all for "open skill" classes. That's how vintage and sport spec are, and they seem to be working just fine...

[Chopper]

I'm all for "open skill" classes. That's how vintage and sport spec are, and they seem to be working just fine...

Vintage is working quite well under the Open skills format. Who knows maybe the SXR will be vintage sooner than we think. Then I can just run that class. Ultimately, am personally wrestling with the the idea of even racing at all this year. I have a different set of priorities that have been presented to me so I need a really good justification to show up. That justification is not money, it's competition. We need deeper competition and I don't see the flood gates opening for riders showing up. Especially when the economy is down and travel expenses are up...

[jeepinxj]

I race vintage and love that class, yet if there was no novice I would get dominated pretty bad. As for the Open class thats a good idea to get more people on the line but its also going to keep people away. People are scared to go out and get passed and lapped like crazy. Last year was my first year and if I raced with people that would whoop my A@# all year it would kind of suck aka spencer whooped me all year. Not saying anything bad, it pushes me to get better. What we really need to do is promote within, I am constantly tellinng people to come out to race. That will help get the starting line filled.

[admin]

it would also help to get some posters out there for other people to see. I thought Scott was going to get something together ofr us to hang up.

[jeepinxj]

Lets see if someone wants to put together some shirts, I would buy some.

[spence-r]

I can have shirts made, Scott and I talked about it for a while but he said its not in the budget.

[jeepinxj]

Well if we just order and buy them there is no need for a budget. What are you talking price wise? They would be good for the national race to.

[spence-r]

Somewhere around $20 a shirt at just a couple at a time. I have bought a shirt from just about every race ive been too, id have to say apba nationals shirts are always pretty sweet. Or whoever is doing the JR Star shirts does a awesome job too.

[fox river pwc]

I race vintage and love that class, yet if there was no novice I would get dominated pretty bad.
For the record, I'm not saying novice should go away - moving up from novice just needs to happen more swiftly. In the sport's current state, the main challenge involved in winning a novice championship is beating all the experts that race in the novice class.


What we really need to do is promote within, I am constantly tellinng people to come out to race. That will help get the starting line filled.
Agreed, and trust me, many of us have been pushing our rec riding buddies to race for a long time, as well as pushing people to race on pwc today - I know I sure have - and I've gotten a handful of new people to try racing. This still doesn't change the fact that the sport needs to live up to their expectations once they show up and give it a shot, or they just race once or twice and leave. The topic of this discussion (sandbagging in the novice class) is a problem that hurts our ability to get and keep racers. Simply put, if novice becomes/remains the "premier" class, and is full of really good riders, it makes it harder to attract newer not-so-good riders. Yes, we've got beginner class, but not everybody wants to race beginner all season, and technically, beginner is supposed to be a "3 times and you're OUT" class - and you move on to novice - but that hasn't been enforced/encouraged, from what I've seen. I know we've recently allowed people to race beginner all season and even awarded beginner championships as well, which only perpetuates the novice sandbagging IMHO - and encourages this view I've noticed where somehow the rules and classses need to be structured so EVERYONE gets to win a championship somehow.

[fox river pwc]

Side notes on championships:
1) There are no rules that say you HAVE to win a novice championship before moving up to expert.
2) I understand the strong desire to win a novice championship before moving up to expert. However, what happens to the sport if EVERY novice riders decides not to move up until they've won a championship? Does this help to grow or help to hurt the sport?

[fox river pwc]

Whoa, Fox River and I agree on something.

Why do you find this surprising enough to make note of?

[Chopper]

The shirts need to be pretty BA if you want to sell them. I would contact Ronny Mac for the design as his stuff is the best in the Business right now (IMO). As far as posters go, how do you hang posters when half the tour has the same location TBA.... If anyone can find TBA on the map please let me know!

These are all great promotional items but I personally don't see them bringing people to the line. Right now the number one thing that will keep people away is cost. The cost of racing and equipment is very high. People don't have the spare change ($$$) laying around they had a few years ago. If the cost was less then I see the promotional items working better. How much does it cost to race at a regional MX track for the day... Anyone, Anyone? From what I could find fees are $20-$35 per class at an MX regional, there is also typically a discount of $10 per class if you are registering for more than one class. Yeah, this is peanuts compared to all of the other expenses in racing, but it's in line with what an entry fee should be.

Back to my original point, who seriously wants to race year after year against 3-5 people tops. I've done it forever it seems like and I personally just cannot justify it anymore. The only way to get more people on line is to combine what we have. Everyone has to start somewhere and people are always going to get lapped. Hell, I got lapped sometimes twice my first year racing, but I still came back, the same my second year of racing. So to use the excuse that you do not want to get lapped is pretty lame. It's a competition and there should be the desire for improvement. Marto has the right idea; he took several years off from racing, came back and now has been busting his butt to get faster. Competitions are tough, that is the point. We all know the old saying that if it's easy it's not worth doing, not to mention is easy stuff really worth rewarding?

Also think about this, if you were to attend a Watercross race as a spectator, cause you saw a flyer or were attending a festival and saw a moto with 10-12 people dicing it up, or a moto with 2-3 people playing follow the leader... Which would look more appealing to you? My guess is the moto with 10-12 people in it. This isn't rocket science, and we should not be rewarding everyone cause they signed up for a class.

Just thinking here... Since the Open Skills doesn't sit well with all how about this: A minimum number of entries to make a class, if that number is not made, then the class is combined with another class. It's done in other forms of racing, so it's nothing new. I'm not talking about combining moto's and scoring them separately, I'm talking about joining more than one class to make a complete class/moto.

[Chopper]

Side notes on championships:
1) There are no rules that say you HAVE to win a novice championship before moving up to expert.
2) I understand the strong desire to win a novice championship before moving up to expert. However, what happens to the sport if EVERY novice riders decides not to move up until they've won a championship? Does this help to grow or help to hurt the sport?

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner here!

[Maulin Marto]

Thin cotton white ones for all the ladies please....:cool:

[joe563]

Well I really think it should be up the promoter.. dont let guys sand bag period... at the end of the year party announce who will be moving up.. done deal.. make it a big deal.. congrats your a bad ass type stuff... nothing in the middle of the year.. that would take care of it..... the other deal is there are some people that just arent that good and wont be.. I know that I would never be able to compete in expert ski.. ever.. I heard that there are some people trying to talk other people into moving up that shouldnt just for seadoo bounty money... that is just wrong,i thought we wanted a safe sport.. if that is the case and that person does move up i am done..you guys wont see me again..i am not getting killed out there..

[Chopper]

Well I really think it should be up the promoter.. dont let guys sand bag period... at the end of the year party announce who will be moving up.. done deal.. make it a big deal.. congrats your a bad ass type stuff... nothing in the middle of the year.. that would take care of it..... the other deal is there are some people that just arent that good and wont be.. I know that I would never be able to compete in expert ski.. ever.. I heard that there are some people trying to talk other people into moving up that shouldnt just for seadoo bounty money... that is just wrong,i thought we wanted a safe sport.. if that is the case and that person does move up i am done..you guys wont see me again..i am not getting killed out there..

Joe you are definitely correct for the R/A classes! People need to be at a certain skill level before they should move up. Ski class is a bit different since we don't have 80 MPH skis period. I guess this is why I put this topic under the standup heading. You are also right that some people will never be expert material for several reasons.

Fox River made an excellent point above and that is: what happens to the sport if EVERY novice riders decides not to move up until they've won a championship? Does this help to grow or help to hurt the sport?
A National or World Title especially might never happen. It's a one day shot, it might not be your day, or you might catch a bad break, or you might not even make it to the line cause of a mechanical failure. It's racing and all of those things happen. There's always going to be a 1st and last place, the problem is when those are the only 2 places racing...

[fox river pwc]

We all agree that we want full lines, right? We all agree that sandbagging hurts the sport, right? We all agree there are "too many classes" and watching 2-3 guys race is just silly, right?

Well, short of major class structure overhauls, I have a format idea that may be worth considering here. (This is ski class only for the moment, as I haven't thought about runabouts at all.)

Here it is:

Run ALL the ski classes in 4 motos, called ski 1, ski 2, ski 3, and ski 4, and run them in that order. All classes are still scored separately.

ski 1:
Beginner (if we offer it), all juniors, 440/550/650 vintage. Anyone in this moto that is new or nervous would be encouraged to let everyone go on the start and ride at their own pace.

ski 2:
Novice Stock, Womens, 750 vintage, possibly Masters too (unless Marty wants to run 750 vintage too)

ski 3:
Novice Limited, Expert Stock, Pro Am Stock, Masters (see above), Vets (but all vets start facing backwards with a dead engine)

ski 4:
Expert Limited, Pro Am Open (which I guess could be a problem for those who may run both - I'm open to solutions on that one - maybe run Pro Am Open with ski 1 and tell them to behave :)????)

Stay with me here.

For the first set of motos, everyone runs as set above. Then, after the lunch break, we run the second set of motos, but people who do well (or maybe just feel up to it - still need to decide how to do this) in their moto will be allowed/encouraged to run in the next faster moto AS WELL for moto 2. They won't be scored in this moto, but they'll be THERE, filling up the line and gaining experience.

Examples:
In other words, let's say Burtka wins moto 2 of ski 1, he can then line up in moto 2 of ski 2.
If me and/or EB do well in 750 vintage, we can both then line up in moto 2 of ski 3.
If spencer does well on his hydro in novice limited, he can then line up in moto 2 of ski 4.


I realize this isn't perfect, but it helps to fill up the lines, espcecially after lunch. Obviously, this means other classes and people not being scored will potentially be affecting the outcome of races. Personally, this doesn't bother me one bit. To those whom it may bother I would simply say, this is regional racing, what exactly are you trying to get out of attending regional races?


Comments welcome. I can take it...

[Chopper]

Now that is some creative thinking there. I would be up for trying that out. As far as the regional racing comment at the end. You are correct it's regional racing. The most anyone should expect to get out of it is Fun and Experence. Whats more fun than racing a bunch of people, and where do you get more experence than racing a bunch of people... Hum?

The reality is that until more racers show up there should really be some consolidation of classes.

[joe563]

That would be cool.. maybe even run 3 instead of 4 to pack them even more.. I here you about the runabout classes.. if you are running a stand up you know how to ride it.. if you are running a runabout you may have bought it that day.. the vintage runabout is kinda like that now.. all skills 2 strokes that should be a cool line up also..

[fox river pwc]

Well I really think it should be up the promoter.. dont let guys sand bag period... at the end of the year party announce who will be moving up.. done deal.. make it a big deal.. congrats your a bad ass type stuff... nothing in the middle of the year.. that would take care of it.....
Ideally, YES!!! But every promoter has to be like minded for this to work. All it takes is one promoter who wants to "accumulate" national/world championships for his region's racers, and the system breaks down with sandbaggers again. Also, WFs needs to follow the same kind of logic - no letting the same guys come over from foreign lands year after year after year and race AND WIN in novice classes - repeatedly. Some of the examples I've heard and read about are just ridiculous. Frazier would be better off just air-mailing the trophies to all of the serial sandbaggers on October 1st and telling them to stay home, so a true novice can have a chance for a change.


the other deal is there are some people that just arent that good and wont be.. I know that I would never be able to compete in expert ski.. ever..
Agreed, and those racers can stay in novice for as long as they aren't obviously dominating.


I heard that there are some people trying to talk other people into moving up that shouldnt just for seadoo bounty money... that is just wrong,i thought we wanted a safe sport.. if that is the case and that person does move up i am done..you guys wont see me again..i am not getting killed out there..
This brings up a good point, and since I'm not a runabout racer, I don't have a good opinion on this point/question. What are the exact criteria that a runabout racer needs to meet/demonstrate in order to be considered ready to move up from novice to expert?

[fox river pwc]

Spencer, where you at? You like my format idea or not?

You could run your SXR in Novice Stock in the ski 2 motos and kick my a s s.

Then, you could run your Hydro in Novice Limited in the ski 3 motos, with chopper and king facing backwards to start on their Limited SXRs, and kick their a s s es. (Oh, and I might just be lining up in the after-lunch ski 3 moto as well. Won't that be a treat for you and your Hydro :):):)?)

Then, to top it all off, in the after-lunch ski 4 moto, you could run your Hydro against chopper and king straight up, and put on a show for the ages :).

So, you'd get all this intense training/racing with the GLWT's best experts all season, yet you don't even have to give up your novice status. I don't see how you can go wrong. If this isn't a recipe to prepare you for Nat'ls and WFs (without moving you to Havasau for the summer), then I don't know what is...

[joe563]

Moving up in runabout isnt up to anyone but the rider.. but i would think that if you get into a wreck almost every weekend i think you should stay novice.. I like luke alot but i think he needs to stay in novice at least one more year, or the 2 stroke class..

[joe563]

oh and paul look out if you get them to ok the deal with stock class and your sj i am in with the 750 with the pipe... can we please please please .... it works for sam..

[joe563]

oh josh sam and i went to the valadrome yesterday, he loves the bike riding thing.. it is the oldest operating valadrome in the country.. i didnt know that.. cool stuff..

[fox river pwc]

oh josh sam and i went to the valadrome yesterday, he loves the bike riding thing.. it is the oldest operating valadrome in the country.. i didnt know that.. cool stuff..

I used to race there with the Kenosha Wheelmen, then I got my driver's license and pedaling got old fast when I had a 150mph street bike to ride :). Back when I was 14 and 15, I'd deliver my newspapers in the aft, then ride my bike from Oak Creek down to Washington park in Kenosha, run my races, and then ride home in the dark. Can't imagine letting my kids do anything like that in today's world.

[fox river pwc]

oh and paul look out if you get them to ok the deal with stock class and your sj i am in with the 750 with the pipe... can we please please please .... it works for sam..

Waddayoumean? You wanna run your 750 in Expert Stock?

[fox river pwc]

Moving up in runabout isnt up to anyone but the rider.. but i would think that if you get into a wreck almost every weekend i think you should stay novice.. I like luke alot but i think he needs to stay in novice at least one more year, or the 2 stroke class..

I'm not aware of how many accidents he's had. Are you talking recently? Are you talking accidents that are all clearly his fault, or are other riders (novices) riding over their heads and spinning out in front of him? I've just never noticed Luke doing anything terribly crazy or erratic on the course, so I guess my opinion is different. I guess I'm assuming if he's on an XPL and you're on a RXP-X, that you'd be the one overtaking him typically. As long as he's not prone to spinning out in front of people, I don't know how else he could be dangerous to everyone else???

[spence-r]

I think it sounds sweet Fox. Except for king and josh starting backwards. Maybe to Fox nobody is fast? NOT a call out but I know where my riding is at and I dont think it is far off the pace, I might moto kinger this weekend, ooo epic battles are on the horizon

[Maulin Marto]

I'm confused....as usual. Is the overall goal for a full line even if the the classes are mixed? I'm down with that as long as its safe for everyone. Paul asked if I was racing 750 vintage? Yes, racing the wifey's SN 701 in that class, masters open and 550 vintage...that is the plan. Sport spec is in the wind unless Scott supply's free oxygen and lower back electric stim packs....on site.

[Chopper]

oh josh sam and i went to the valadrome yesterday, he loves the bike riding thing.. it is the oldest operating valadrome in the country.. i didnt know that.. cool stuff..

Joe, you have a cyclist in the making. To most the bike was the coolest thing in the world at a young age... The bike equaled freedom, at least until 16. Then there are the wackos like myself who refuse to grow up, and still pedal bikes cause they still equal freedom. Keep that sammy man pedalin! You should see if there is a BMX track close, BMX racing is also pretty dang BA and it's starting to really come back, especially since it's now in the summer Olympics.

[Chopper]

I think it sounds sweet Fox. Except for king and josh starting backwards. Maybe to Fox nobody is fast? NOT a call out but I know where my riding is at and I dont think it is far off the pace, I might moto kinger this weekend, ooo epic battles are on the horizon

Well Spennypoo. You and Steve both will have a ton of laps in before the Black Bomber will even see water. I'm thinking it'll be the last weekend in May or the begining of June before I have the free time get it built and be open for the water... Maybe (huge maybe here) May 16th. I guess I'm looking more forward to the 3 bike races I have coming up in the next couple weeks. It's tough to pass up 2 races in town and one race an hour away.

[joe563]

The thing with luke is that I know its not his idea of moving up its craigs for bounty money because he thinks we only have 4 guys in the class.. that isnt the way to move up. yes i would run my junk ski in the class to fill lines.. can you say lapped rider.. i am all about a good time this year,dont care if i even run my new boat... thinking of selling it.. no world no nashville no nothin.. i am going to race scotts stuff .. the world finals opened my eyes.. it had nothing to do with the death that happened there.

[fox river pwc]

More thoughts on the ski 1, ski 2, ski 3, ski 4 format.

As for how to decide who "qualifies" for the extra after-lunch motos:

What I'm thinking is we just decide on a max number of skis we want in each moto. For sake of discussion, let's say 16.

So, let's say that the ski 2 moto has 12 skis in already from vintage 750, womens, and novice stock. That would mean the top 4 finishers from the after-lunch ski 1 moto have the option to line up in the after-lunch moto of ski 2, which makes 16 on the line. Make sense? And, if any of the top 4 choose not to line up with ski 2, then the 5th place finisher from ski 1 has the option, and so on...

And technically speaking, I suppose some racers could earn the chance to run 2 extra motos. For example, let's say EB wins the after-lunch ski 2 moto and then lines up in the ski 3 moto and finishes 6th. Then, since ski 4 has only (let's say) 3 racers in it, that would mean the top 13 finishers from ski 3 could line up in ski 4 if they choose to.

Questions:

Does this sound like something the majority would want?

Does this sound like it might keep people from entering multiple classes who otherwise might? I've tried to structure it so the multi-classers can still enter as they have been, but who really knows?

Lastly, as far as what's going on inside craig's and luke's heads, I have no idea. If there was no bounty, and luke told me he was considering moving up, my opinion would not change at all, but maybe I'm just too naïve??? I dunno...

[fox river pwc]

Oh, and what's with the comment that maybe I don't think anybody is fast? I'd check my posts, but I honestly don't recall calling anyone slow.

As for the backwards dead engine starting guys in ski 3, I figured that would make things more interesting and beneficial for them, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. Or, if anyone else feels like they don't need/want that kind of handicap, then they'll be free to turn around until the band snaps as well. No biggie...

[Chopper]

Here's the thing. I think this format is worth a shot. Hell anything that makes some sense is worth a shot right now. There is virtually nothing to loose. The problem as we all know would be selling this to the powers that be. Maybe (and I am off in lala land) this could be done on one day of a two day event to see how it would work. Now here is one shot below the belt... This would also mean that motos would have to start before noon... LOL!

[fox river pwc]

Before noon?

I'm just the idea guy. For scheduling miracles, please see the guy upstairs.

;););)





Sorry Scott, I couldn't resist...


BTW Scott, have you been following all this. Any comments?

[fox river pwc]

Marty, yes full lines whenever possible, w/o screwing things up too much or forcing every racer to enter expert limited, pro-am open, and vets open.

Some "comptetion integrity" compromises here - as race outcomes are likely to be affected by the mixing. However, it's a chance to give the experts some people to race with besides themselves, AND it gives everyone a chance to see how they stack up against the experts.

Granted, it's not the same thing as a line full of experts, but it's the best we can do with our local regulars - and hopefully, will ultimately turn more racers into legitimate experts sooner than later.

Feel free to call me if you wanna talk more about it, but keep in mind that this is all really up to Scott.

[Chopper]

Scott following this? Come on, he's way to busy playing Farmville on Facebook.

[spence-r]

I was just kidding around fox because you said I had to run against josh and steve and they had a dead engine or something. Someone call scott and see what he says

[Chopper]

Hey Spennypoo, you have a phone right? Or are you to busy tweeking valves and replacing sensors?

[spence-r]

I dont even really understand how it will work, but anything is worth a shot. Im was busy replacing sensors and will be tweeking valves soon.

[fox river pwc]

Spencer, call me and I'll explain how it works. I don't want you going through life all confused.

Oh, and after your sensor swaps and valve adjustments are done, don't forget to change your oil - again. Which is it, oil changes every 2 tanks or 3 tanks of gas?

[spence-r]

A little bit more than that on the oil it looks like, but not much, but that is being very cautious you can stretch it out longer but its not hard or expensive to change. Sensor swap is user error not the boats fault and they are expensive but change out really fast, 5mm allen and pull it out, unplug from wire, plug back in, done. Valve adjustment is a safety precaution done every 25 hours or so.

Fox, didnt you say in another post you had a modded ski that doesnt do 50?

[fox river pwc]

It does now, but that means little to me.

What you're forgetting is that my SJ came from the factory doing just 38mph. In it's current form, top speed has been improved by 33%, all while the crank has lasted 10 seasons and the top end is entering it's 4th season. Hundreds of hours on that motor without a wrench on it since assembly besides tuning. The cases literally have not been split since more than a year before 9/11/01 - 'bout when you were in kindergarten :). And technically speaking, that ski is just a $2000 hydrospace-type pump and impeller away from mid-50s, but the point of my race SJ isn't and never was about top speed anyhow - whatever the top speed is, I just want it to get there quick, cuz that's what I enjoy. Keep in mind that I didn't make my SJ "Just for Racing".

Yep, a hydro sure is better than my modded 1991 Super Jet. You should come meet us out at Bender Park when you head this way for the Racine and Kenosha races and air that hydro out a bit. It's a good time, even when the waves are crappy like in this vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeZtwmLSKY

[joe563]

I would watch the whole video but i couldnt get past metallica..... you need to get some footage of big air.. but still nice paul.. looks like a bunch of guys out there.. bring them to the races.. looked like a whole sport spec class there already.. I do think its pretty sad when a guy that is new to the sport buys a new boat and everyone just jacks him up all they can... kick there ass all year spencer.. dont look back.. good times

[luke_fritz2000]

ok joe, ive been reading about what u been saying about me and moving up to expert and how i could hurt someone.... i was trying to be mature and not say anything, but im comming to your level..... Craig and I yes talked about me moving up.. but i said No im not ready for it.... and if you actually watched all the races that i had crashes in.... i do believe i was victim of novice racers spinning out in front of me... i couldnt do anything about it eccpecially if they happened pretty much at the start when everyone is so close to everybody.... and avoiding a 10 foot boat that is in ur lane at like 60 mph is kinda hard to monuver around... and u know that... Also, havent we raced together o yes we have.... and not once we had a problem about getting hurt... i just race hard because i race with craig... and i know he is good and wont spin out, i also trust him.. u all seen him race and u all know he is good.... so i just wanna try to be like him and race hard... but when people trust people to race their boat... they should trust them that they wont spin out and make sure they can handle the boat 1st or nothing would happen they would have safe races... so in my eyes.... when u threw me under the bus it kinda hurts cause u say u like me and enjoy racing with me..... stop with all this crap and look towards the future and ill show u that you can race without fear and me not hurting anyone.... so see u in a expert class some point in the season... you made my choice..... thanks for you help joe

[luke_fritz2000]

ooo. and thanx for the avitar johnston

[fox river pwc]

For the record, I'm not bothered that somebody in our region got a HS. I wish spencer the best, and I want him to do well. The HS has obviously caused some serious issues with the sport and the competitive parity - much like the SXR did when it came out, but the SXR was much more affordable, and kawi dealerships are everwhere, so expecting all the serious racers to change machines was less of a stress on the sport.

I simply want our region to thrive with or without the HS in it (and I assume Scott does as well), and I certainly don't want racers staying home because of any model of ski throwing off the parity we need to keep people interested in lining up. Ultimately, this means a bit of a delicate balance has to be managed, especially in the stock classes. I believe it can be done, but that probably means some racers won't necessarily get their way all the time. I just hope everyone can accept that and keep the big picture for regional racing in mind...

[spence-r]

Im not even running a ecu in limited class! What are you talking about parity! A 55 mph ski in limited class is not fair, come on man. Wouldnt want everyone to cry if I come out with a ecu in my boat so im running stock ecu in limited class around here it looks like for this season.
I still havent heard from scott about stock class rules however.

[fox river pwc]

Relax Spencer, I was talking about HS in general and what I've seen/read about it since HS hit the racing scene. Also, I'm basically referring to the parity in stock class, as that seems to be the area of most concern/debate.

Also, how would I know you weren't running the ecu in limited? You never told me you weren't, yet I thought you had posted that you got both the stock and limited ecu's when you bought the HS. But whatever, it's your choice in limited, so do what you want there. I would have figured you had already talked to Scott by now??? You need his number?

[fox river pwc]

Oh, hey Luke!! Welcome back to the forum. Love your avatar. My son used to sleep in jammies with that same pic before he started school :)...

[luke_fritz2000]

I know my avitar is kick ass thanks for putting that for me

[joe563]

Well i guess welcome you little beeeeotch... have fun there is no expert stock... it is a mistake on the website.. so you are running limited or pro am stock.... your brother bought a boat just to compete in this class.. It costs you more in entry fees to get your ass handed to you..sorry if i hurt your feelings on the other post it wasnt that you are not a good rider,it you will not compete in the class... there are 4 rxp-x's and valik in limited.. so at best you are 6 every race, unless anyone with a big boat races also like fegals or mucahy then you will be 8-9... have a great season.. cant wait to see you run the class in racine..

[spence-r]

Hey, everyone loves the underdog!

[fox river pwc]

You mean underbeeeeoooootcha...

[admin]

there are 4 rxp-x's and valik in limited.. so at best you are 6 every race, unless anyone with a big boat races also like fegals or mucahy then you will be 8-9... And this is why you will not see me moving up till I can afford a boat that will complete with everyone else. Luke just run the NA R/A class, all skill levels welcome. If you decide to move to expert that is your own choice however.

[luke_fritz2000]

I know what ur getting at joe and i understand but I was never gonna start the season at all in a expert class,, i will be a novice and limited racer at the start of the season..... and MAYBE at some point in the season i will try it once or twice just to test my waters and see how many times i would get lapped... i just wanna see if i could have potential in the future at all against u guys... so no im not gonna start the seaon in expert this was 100 percent my choice

[joe563]

You personally will not have a problem... the boat is the issue.. you get the top of the line boat anytime in the future you will be fine.. might not win everytime but nobody does..... ONCE YOU MAKE THE MOVE THERE IS NO GOING BACK.... jb is right the 2 stroke class is the way to go for that boat... somthing that slow against the monsters out there now is just plain a hazzard i dont care who is on it...

[JE513]

and if you actually watched all the races that i had crashes in.... i do believe i was victim of novice racers spinning out in front of me... i couldnt do anything about it eccpecially if they happened pretty much at the start when everyone is so close to everybody.... and avoiding a 10 foot boat that is in ur lane at like 60 mph is kinda hard to monuver around...

Well, you won't have to worry about me getting your way this year Luke. I'll probably just race beginner ski, maybe novice, if I'm not allowed to race beginner again... I would've probably just raced beginner all year last season but I was told I couldn't, which is why I ended up racing novice in the first place.

[Chopper]

Historically Beginer ski has been limited to 3 races total. There has been a couple seasons where this was not followed. All that does is allow for more sandbagging which is not what this sport needs. Beginers need to move to Novice and Novice need to move to Expert, that is how we get progress.

[admin]

Well, you won't have to worry about me getting your way this year Luke. I'll probably just race beginner ski, maybe novice, if I'm not allowed to race beginner again... I would've probably just raced beginner all year last season but I was told I couldn't, which is why I ended up racing novice in the first place.

Did I read that right? You pick up an SXR this John?

[JE513]

Yeah, this is John. I'm going to pick one up at the end of the month.

[joe563]

johns a super bad ass... stand up stallion... boo ya

[JE513]

I know the rules state that beginners are limited to 3 races unless, in the case of a series, riders may compete in the entire series prior to moving to the Novice class. I raced the first two rounds in beginner at Lake Andrea in Pleasant Prairie and was planning on racing it the whole season but was told that that was a one time thing and that I needed to move up. But, considering Matt Johnson won a beginner title for the season last year, obviously it was being counted as a series. So, yeah maybe I couldn't really handle Brad's boat out there very well and I had a couple of accidents , but then again, if was able to carry out the season in beginner those accidents probably would've never happened in the first place.

[Maulin Marto]

Yeah, this is John. I'm going to pick one up at the end of the month.
That Johnny V? You 40 yet? Masters ski?

[JE513]

No, this is John E. I raced Brad's RXP a few times last year. I'll probably just be racing beginner/novice stock. But I will be 30 in June so maybe I'll race Vets if I don't suck too bad. :D

[Chopper]

But I will be 30 in June so maybe I'll race Vets if I don't suck too bad. :D

Oh yeah, fresh meat... We'll show you all the tricks for beating on those handicap 4-jokes!

[joe563]

dee dit dee.. 2 strokers josh i am sick of hereing about your sex life.. when you getting the boat john i thought you already had it... you starting in novice right off the top this year??? oh yea brads a little bitch..

[JE513]

I'm going to pick it up on May 1st Joe. I imagine I'll probably start in beginner. The last time I rode a stand up was about 12 years ago and only a handful of times.